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Brain mets(2)
Butch22000
Posted: Friday, July 17, 2009 9:50 AM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


I have just finsihed  the 4 th round of chemo. Carboplaton and Etoposide. One rond of Carbo with eto. and then 2 days just Eto. I started out with sclc and it spread to my parotid gland had that removed. Pet scan 6/18 showed great results so far right hilar and right lower lung have resolved. I know it's not over by a long shot.  I had some pain in the back of my head on the right side. I had cyberknife for AN over a year ago. Not sure if it's related doesn't matter. I had MRI and they came up with 5 tiny focci of abnormal enhancement supretentorially predominatly in both frontal lobes with the largest lesion at 5 mm in diameter adjacent to the lefrt frontal horen. The AN went from 9 x 16 to 18 x 11 no big deal. Could CK deal with 5 spots? I'm pretty sure surgery is out unless it was just 1 spot, I was told. Thanks for your time and for any responses. I appreciate it.  
radsrus
Posted: Friday, July 17, 2009 11:04 AM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


For small cell with metastatic disease in the brain, we generally recommend starting with whole brain radiation. There are likely to be other spots that you cannot yet see. But yes, CK can handle 5 spots.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:16 AM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


Thanks for your respoonse. I have another question would having  ck on these now prevent me from having full brain radiation later ? Thank you again.
radsrus
Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:06 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


No. BUt we would recommend doing it the other way - WBRT now, then CK if needed for any remaining spots.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Dr. J
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:58 AM
Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 928


Could use WBRT later if necessary.

 

Jerome J. Spunberg, M.D., FACR, FACRO
CyberKnife Center of Palm Beach
jspunberg@radiationoncologyinstitute.com
(561) 799-2828

 

Radiation Oncology Institute
10335 N. Military Trail, Suite C
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410
(561) 624-1717


Butch22000
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 2:29 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


I appreciate both you guys. I am as conflicted as well. I met with a renound Doc who I won't mention his name but I know both of you have heard of him. He wants to do this I just had another MRI in a different location so their compuetrs hook up they way they need to. Thinner slices I think.  It's only beeen a week between the 2 mri's and I think if there isn't anymore he wants to do it.  I also came across this article from a Doc at MD Anderson. How would you respond to this? I know this is crazy stuff but, I thought interesting to get other opinions. Thanks

Whole Brain Radiation Increases Risk of Learning and Memory Problems in Cancer Patients with Brain Metastases

Nearly half of patients experience impaired neurocognitive function, prompts possible change to standard practice

M. D. Anderson News Release 09/22/08 

 

Cancer patients who receive stereotactic radiosurgery (SRS) and whole brain radiation therapy (WBRT) for the treatment of metastatic brain tumors have more than twice the risk of developing learning and memory problems than those treated with SRS alone, according to new research from The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center.

The findings of the phase III randomized trial were presented at today's 50th annual meeting of the American Society for Therapeutic Radiology and Oncology.

Led by Department of Radiation Oncology at M. D. Anderson, the study offers greater context to the ongoing debate among oncologists about how best to manage the treatment of cancer patients with one to three brain metastases.

The American Cancer Society estimates approximately 170,000 cancer patients will experience metastases to the brain from common primary cancers such as breast, colorectal, kidney and lung in 2008. More than 80,000 of those patients will have between one and three brain metastases.

Over the last decade, SRS, which uses high-doses of targeted x-rays, has gained acceptance as an initial treatment for tumors that have spread to the brain. SRS is also commonly used in combination with WBRT, radiation of the entire brain, to treat tumors that are visible and those that may not be detected by diagnostic imaging.

"Determining how to optimize outcomes with the smallest cost to the quality of life is a treatment decision every radiation oncologist faces," said Chang. "While both approaches are in practice and both are equally acceptable, data from this trial suggest that oncologists should offer SRS alone as the upfront, initial therapy for patients with up to three brain metastases." 

The seven year study observed 58 patients presenting with one to three newly diagnosed brain metastases who were randomized to receive SRS followed by WBRT or SRS alone. Approximately four months after treatment, 49 percent of patients who received WBRT experienced a decline in learning and memory function compared to 23 percent in those patients who received SRS alone.

An independent data monitoring committee halted the trial after interim results showed the high statistical probability (96.4 percent) that patients randomized to SRS alone would continue to perform better.

M. D. Anderson researchers measured participants' neurocognitive function using a short battery of neuropsychological tests, with the primary endpoint being memory function as tested by the Hopkins Verbal Learning Test Revised. Patient performance that decreased more than a predefined criteria relative to their baseline were considered to exhibit a marked decline. 

"This is a case where the risks of learning dysfunction outweigh the benefits of freedom from progression and tip the scales in favor of using SRS alone. Patients are spared from the side effects of whole brain radiation and we are able to preserve their memory and learning function to a higher degree" said Chang. "Here the research suggests patients who receive SRS as their initial treatment and then are monitored closely for any recurrence will fare better."

The study builds on previous research by senior author Christina A. Meyers, Ph.D., M. D. Anderson's chief of the Section Neuropsychology in the Department of Neuro-Oncology, examining neurocognitive function in patients with brain metastases treated with whole-brain radiation. "Unlike past studies comparing the two treatment strategies which did not use sensitive cognitive tests or closely follow patients after being treated with SRS, radiation oncologists in this trial were able to identify new lesions early and treat them with either radiosurgery, surgery, whole brain radiation or less commonly, chemotherapy," Meyers said. "We believe doctors and patients alike will favor this method over upfront whole brain radiation." 

M. D. Anderson is a leader in the application of SRS to cancers of the spine and head and neck, as well as research determining the effects toxic cancer treatment, like radiation therapy, has on brain function. Based on these results, future research studies are planned to determine if there are expanded indications of using SRS alone for patients with more than three brain metastases.

In addition to Chang and Meyers, M. D. Anderson researchers contributing to the study include Jeffrey S. Wefel, Ph.D., Department of Neuro-Oncology; Kenneth R. Hess, Ph.D., Division of Quantitative Sciences; Fredrick F. Lang, M.D., Department of Neurosurgery and Pamela K. Allen, Ph.D., David Kornguth, M.D., Anita Mahajan, M.D., Moshe Maor, M.D., Christopher Pelloski, M.D. and Shiao Y. Woo, M.D., all of the Department of Radiation Oncology. 09/22/08


radsrus
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:50 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


There is no question that there is a potential down side to WBRT. But with small cell lung cancer, it is unlikely that what you see is all there is. I think most centers would recommend WBRT for SCLC. We are VERY aggressive in pursuing radiosurgery for brain mets, but still use WBRT for small call.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


radsrus
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:50 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


By the way - there is other data refuting the problems with WBRT. It is a very debatable area.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 4:36 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


Thanks to both of you. I am going to take a shot at CK now, I think. lol.  Go after what we know now and if something comes up later deal with it. If I get WBRT now that would be it for  that to happen again am I correct in that? I guess I'm being a pain but, it goes from 1 thing to another. Oh well don't answer if your tired of my asking I would understand. I will try to keep others who are interested or have similiar problems, what's going on with me. I wish everyone well.
radsrus
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:12 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


I did not understand the question. And we are not tired of your questions as long as you have them.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:07 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


If I did WBRT now could it be done again?
Dr. J
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:03 AM
Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 928


It usually can, but at a reduced dose and with less chance of success and higher risk.

 

Jerome J. Spunberg, M.D., FACR, FACRO
CyberKnife Center of Palm Beach
jspunberg@radiationoncologyinstitute.com
(561) 799-2828

 

Radiation Oncology Institute
10335 N. Military Trail, Suite C
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410
(561) 624-1717


radsrus
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:17 AM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


We virtually never do it the second time.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Dr. J
Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:41 AM
Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 928


Once in a while it comes up...

 

Jerome J. Spunberg, M.D., FACR, FACRO
CyberKnife Center of Palm Beach
jspunberg@radiationoncologyinstitute.com
(561) 799-2828

 

Radiation Oncology Institute
10335 N. Military Trail, Suite C
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410
(561) 624-1717


Butch22000
Posted: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:55 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


Well what I was hoping for did not work out as the last MRi showed 5-7 very small mets. So now both my Onc and my Ck Doc agree I need WBR. So WBR is what I will be getting. How many days and how many rads or grays do you get with WBR? I  just need  to decide stay where I have had my chemo and surgery or go to my CK Docs Hospital. Will get it started real soon. After tomorrow just 1 more 3 day round of chemo. One more hill to climb and well get this behind us.  Good health to everyone here.  Thanks for all you Docs do to help people.
radsrus
Posted: Thursday, July 30, 2009 6:10 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


Probably the most common regimens nationally are 300 cGy x10 and 250 cGy x 14-15. We tend to use 200 cGy x20 to try to reduce toxicity.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Dr. J
Posted: Friday, July 31, 2009 3:54 AM
Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 928


I feel similarly, and tend to use the 20 fraction regimen when patients have a better prognosis and are likely to be at risk for long-term complications.

 

Jerome J. Spunberg, M.D., FACR, FACRO
CyberKnife Center of Palm Beach
jspunberg@radiationoncologyinstitute.com
(561) 799-2828

 

Radiation Oncology Institute
10335 N. Military Trail, Suite C
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410
(561) 624-1717


Butch22000
Posted: Saturday, August 01, 2009 3:37 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


I am 62 years old and they want to start even before I finish my chemo. Is that a good idea since I do get quite a bit of it. My head is funky now just finished Friday. lol  They want 15 days what do you guys think. I'm not sure I'd  be happy being in there 4 weeks but I suppose I need it to be effective. I am concerned with the repercussions and can they block out my formor AN which was CK'd April of '08.
radsrus
Posted: Saturday, August 01, 2009 4:35 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


They cannot block out the AN, but there should be no problem. IF they are concerned about the brainstem dose, then can block out that entire area, but there is some slight risk of something coming back there later. There is pretty good data that giving chemo and whole brain radiation together is not a good idea. I personally would interrupt the chemo. In that case, I might shorten the radiation course, and 3 weeks might be a good compromise.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


TJB
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2009 3:47 PM
Joined: 8/2/2009
Posts: 1


Not sure if I am doing this properly. But giving it a try. My relative, a 56y.o. woman has had brain surgey to remove a tennis ball sized benign tumor.

The surgeons used small holes in the skull for this procedure. All of the tumor could not be removed because it is so inter-twined with her optical nerve. The doctor has told her that she more than likely would lose her eyesight if more is removed surgically.

It has been 3 months and she has undergone two more surgeries to insert permanant drainage tubes from the site to her stomach, i believe.

She still has painful swelling at the back of her head along with strong headaches. Her quality of life is deteriorating as she doesn't feel like eating much and the pain is becoming tedious to deal with for her. She is unable to work or be by herself. She is vary shaky.

Her Doctor is reffering her to another member of his group to see if there is something more to be done through someone elses eyes and experience.

I have not heard of any alternate treatment to remove the balance of the tumor.

Question of course is can Cyberknife possibly help without damage to the optic nerves? I would appreciate any help i can get. Thank You


radsrus
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:03 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


It is difficult to say whether she would be better served with standard radiation or CK without seeing the images. It is likely that one or the other would help control the tumor. I would get the scans to the CK center of your choice and let them review the situation.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 5:10 AM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


Met with Rad Doc, she wants to do 3 weeks with 37 grays. She will talk to the Onc about waiting on last chemo treatment which is supposed to be next week too. So will the 3 weeks off from chemo be a good idea?  She also says it will not be as toxic? I question that but, have another appointment next week to get fitted etc. Doesn't want me to drive because of possible seizures that's a new one. I have not had a problem driving during my chemo. If the largest met is 5 mm how many grays do I really need if the other are very small? I really wish I could have Ck'd those. I am concerned about the grays for my AN and I sure don't want a facial nerve problem since my left side is now gone. Thanks
radsrus
Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 6:24 AM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


That dose is pretty reasonable. I don't think this is going to affect your facial nerve although there are no guarantees. I think this is a very reasonable approach.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:09 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


I appreciate your opinion Doc. Thank you. I feel better if that's possible. lol
Butch22000
Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:15 PM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


Ok last one, maybe. Now they want me to do the chemo and then the WBRT. What are your thoughts on that? What came first the chicken or the egg? lol I don't know.
radsrus
Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:17 PM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


With small cell, that is probably acceptable provided the brain is monitored every two months.

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


Butch22000
Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:56 AM
Joined: 7/17/2009
Posts: 15


How long would that be for ?
radsrus
Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:10 AM
Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 2354


FOr us, it would mean until you got treated and for at least one year thereafter, then at a somewhat reduced frequency

 

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
(405) 272-7311
buddy@swrads.org

Mail to:
Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave. #101
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

 


 

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